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Automation and AI will destroy free market capitalism
#21
(04-20-2017, 07:27 PM)Finster Wrote:
(04-20-2017, 07:03 PM)cbeatty Wrote:
(04-20-2017, 05:38 PM)Finster Wrote:
(04-20-2017, 03:35 PM)cbeatty Wrote:
(04-19-2017, 07:46 PM)Finster Wrote: How did we come to the conclusion that jobs are a central measure of our standard of living in the first place?  The elite is fond of quoting high employment as a measure of its economic policy success, but maybe that's because the elite wants other people to be doing the work.
The obvious truth capitalists don't openly discuss. (are you sounding a little Marxist here?)

If there's such a thing as a libertarian Marxist ... ;-)

Seriously, the cognitive dissonance here is probably due to the popular portrayal of the current US economy as "capitalist".  Sure, it has some features of free market capitalism, but in what free market economy do you have a committee of central planners composed of a banking cartel fixing the price of credit?  This centralized monopolistic enterprise is how you get a politically empowered elite in a position to be enforcing polices targeted to maximum employment in the first place.  Puppeteers pulling government strings to make other people work is hardly what I'd call free market capitalism.

Remember we have a Federal Reserve that has openly pursued policies to kite asset prices.  And since the majority of assets are owned by the rich, this policy makes the rich richer.  Blaming it on capitalism is just a propaganda ploy to dupe voters into supporting yet more government intervention.

I may share some complaints with Marxists, but not their solutions.  Because I don't see the exploding economic inequality as resulting from capitalism, but from government policy that actively transfers wealth to the wealthy from everybody else.

Be that as is it may, I would propose that it is the select financiers who have figured their way to amassing large fortunes and becoming the ultimate capitalists.

Sure ... via their access to government.  Over a century ago, they convinced Congress to give them a monopoly on issuing the nation's currency.  That evolved further into a monopoly on setting the price of credit.  But on what planet is this free market "capitalism"?

Isn't that what a good Capitalist would do?; work a government to protect its interest? or create an entity to protect its interest, and call it government?

I don't have a full grasp of what free market capitalism is, whether it has ever existed, or under what conditions it is possible. If there is such a thing, I think concentrated capital presses its downfall. (and I want to see Dave Gillie acknowledge that)
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#22
Quote:Automation and AI will destroy free market capitalism
 we did a good job discussing the benefits and ecnomic risks of such,


NOW for the other part of that hypothesis
the SOCIAL psychological effects of dramatic change in life
often it results in turmoil, VIOLENCE and changes in systems.
Think of changing from hunter gatherer to agriculture
THEN the industrialization brought us world wars and the evils of Communism/Socialism (CS)?
or did the fall of USSR just fine tune CS to a more workable system?
we like to cling to the past till things BREAK
people LIKE FASCISM when they're mad
will Fascism replace Capitalism? in many Countries for a while?
Till we RE Learn that Freedom works?
perhaps Governments will retain ownership over AI and large corporations automatic processes?
and share with the population?
 
what if the whole world would have gone Communistic in the 1930s instead of a variety of different systems existing so we could see what worked and what did no?
the world seems a lot more connected now than historically, perhaps the next reactionary evil system will be worldwide and we'll be doomed with it forever?

(04-20-2017, 07:53 PM)cbeatty Wrote: I don't have a full grasp of what free market capitalism is, whether it has ever existed, or under what conditions it is possible. If there is such a thing, I think concentrated capital presses its downfall. (and I want to see Dave Gillie acknowledge that)

Concentrated Capital is an AWESOME thing!!
it's what makes most all and any investment and production and wealth possible.


THAT SAID, concentrating Capital thru the use of fraud of force, (as is the only tools Government has for example, even though not exclusive to Govt) is an EVIL THING. and therefore will have more of an evil effect compared to earning it honestly.



NOW TOO, there MAY also be some problems with MASSIVE amount of concentrated Capital,

interestingly those against Concentrated Capital (CC) don't distinguish much between HOW it comes about,
(nor sometimes how much of it there is)
AND call for the greatest CC entities (Govt) to solve the problem of CC!!!!!!!!!!
go figure
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#23
In addition to the obvious economic effects of automation and robotics I see looming social problems. Consider the difference in two towns, one where thousands of teens and twenty somethings are unemployed and another where young people are gainfully employed. The amount of gang banging, small scale corruption and street violence in the first scenario is inevitably greater, probably much greater, than in the second. Perhaps an idle mind and hands truly are the devil's workshop. Will giving these young people free money and goods really change the social ramifications? Consider my signature line below.
I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.
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#24
Dave,

for all your rantings about "it's the govt" ,,,,,,,,,,

(which it largely is)

we have the best government capitalism could buy ..............

(04-20-2017, 07:55 PM)DaveGillie Wrote: Concentrated Capital is an AWESOME thing!!
it's what makes most all and any investment and production and wealth possible.

and here I thought it was production, the mixing of labor with the resources of the earth, aided with capital ----- the wisdom, tools, buildings, machinery, and improved practices of the past -------- that made wealth possible

How concentrated does capital have to be for production and wealth to be possible? Shall we ask Mr. Rothschild?

(04-20-2017, 07:55 PM)DaveGillie Wrote:  there MAY also be some problems with MASSIVE amount of concentrated Capital,

a glimmer shines through .........
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#25
(04-20-2017, 07:53 PM)cbeatty Wrote:
(04-20-2017, 07:27 PM)Finster Wrote:
(04-20-2017, 07:03 PM)cbeatty Wrote: Be that as is it may, I would propose that it is the select financiers who have figured their way to amassing large fortunes and becoming the ultimate capitalists.

Sure ... via their access to government.  Over a century ago, they convinced Congress to give them a monopoly on issuing the nation's currency.  That evolved further into a monopoly on setting the price of credit.  But on what planet is this free market "capitalism"?

Isn't that what a good Capitalist would do?; work a government to protect its interest? or create an entity to protect its interest, and call it government?

I don't have a full grasp of what free market capitalism is, whether it has ever existed, or under what conditions it is possible. If there is such a thing, I think concentrated capital presses its downfall. (and I want to see Dave Gillie acknowledge that)

I doubt very many people do know what free market capitalism is.  Yet there is no shortage of critics.  My answer to them is don't knock it till you've tried it!

It's pretty easy to say what it's not ... it sure isn't an economy dominated by the force of government where a central kommittee fixes the prices of anything, including credit, which courses through the economic lives of virtually everyone.

The closest real world example that comes to mind would be the United States from the adoption of the Constitution in 1789 until the adoption of the Federal Reserve in 1913.  How did that work?  If I recall correctly, a few scraggly colonies advanced to world economic power.  It was still a fairly good example until the closing of the gold window in 1971, which has allowed the Fed since to vastly tighten its grip on money and credit.

Sure, concentrated capital is a problem, but concentrated government leads to concentrated capital.  I just cited one notorious example of how that happens - the Federal Reserve kiting asset prices.  The wealth gap has been exploding.  Without concentrated government, you wouldn't have near the concentration of capital.  Just connect those last couple of dots and you've nailed the crux of the problem.
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#26
(04-21-2017, 03:33 PM)Finster Wrote: Sure, concentrated capital is a problem, but concentrated government leads to concentrated capital.  I just cited one notorious example of how that happens - the Federal Reserve kiting asset prices.  The wealth gap has been exploding.  Without concentrated government, you wouldn't have near the concentration of capital.  Just connect those last couple of dots and you've nailed the crux of the problem.

does concentrated capital lead to concentrated government?
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#27
I posted this story before, but it must have been before the "wipeout" and re-start of this forum, because it doesn't show up in the search.
So, I'll post it again.
A short story on how the automated future doesn't need to wait until there are robots capable of doing all our jobs:

"Manna", by Marshall Brain
http://marshallbrain.com/manna.htm
Guns don't kill people, the government does.
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#28
(04-21-2017, 06:42 PM)cbeatty Wrote:
(04-21-2017, 03:33 PM)Finster Wrote: Sure, concentrated capital is a problem, but concentrated government leads to concentrated capital.  I just cited one notorious example of how that happens - the Federal Reserve kiting asset prices.  The wealth gap has been exploding.  Without concentrated government, you wouldn't have near the concentration of capital.  Just connect those last couple of dots and you've nailed the crux of the problem.

does concentrated capital lead to concentrated government?

Do accidents lead to drunk driving?
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#29
(04-22-2017, 06:48 PM)Finster Wrote:
(04-21-2017, 06:42 PM)cbeatty Wrote:
(04-21-2017, 03:33 PM)Finster Wrote: Sure, concentrated capital is a problem, but concentrated government leads to concentrated capital.  I just cited one notorious example of how that happens - the Federal Reserve kiting asset prices.  The wealth gap has been exploding.  Without concentrated government, you wouldn't have near the concentration of capital.  Just connect those last couple of dots and you've nailed the crux of the problem.

does concentrated capital lead to concentrated government?

Do accidents lead to drunk driving?

does concentrated capital lead to concentrated government?

Is this an unfair question?
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#30
(04-19-2017, 07:46 PM)Finster Wrote: How did we come to the conclusion that jobs are a central measure of our standard of living in the first place?  The elite is fond of quoting high employment as a measure of its economic policy success, but maybe that's because the elite wants other people to be doing the work.

Yes, they are also fond of the virtue of self sacrifice .................. for others!

oh, and delayed gratification .............. again, for the plebes.

maximum effort, self sacrifice, deprivation and rule following .............. for commoners

all while they rig any way they can, and expand ownership ............
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