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Robot Created Wealth part #2
#1
really got lost on that last thread,

but seems to always keep coming back to the SAME Question:

Quote:.What is your answer to the following question?

Will the benefits of increased productivity offered by robot grocery clerks, robot truck drivers, etc., inure to the benefit of all members of society?

or, will it lead to a chasm - where there is a separation in which the benefits accrue disproportionately to those at the top of economic society, while those humans that are replaced by robots have a diminished standard of living?


THIS question seems to have been answered tho, like many many times by pointing out the great many fantastic productivity increasing machines we've used in the past that have over and over and OVER AGAIN

PROVEN to make life better for ALL HUMANS on the planet.

YET some KEEP on with this fantastical claim of it will somehow be "DIFFERENT THIS TIME"


the burden really is ON YOU
Really give us some HINT of WHY wave of labor saving devices be ANY DIFFERENT than ALL the MANY PREVIOUS????
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#2
Yep, the Luddites were smashing the new automated looms in 1811 because they thought they'd lose their jobs.
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#3
(06-20-2018, 07:36 PM)DaveGillie Wrote: really got lost on that last thread,

but seems to always keep coming back to the SAME Question:

Quote:.What is your answer to the following question?

Will the benefits of increased productivity offered by robot grocery clerks, robot truck drivers, etc., inure to the benefit of all members of society?

or, will it lead to a chasm - where there is a separation in which the benefits accrue disproportionately to those at the top of economic society, while those humans that are replaced by robots have a diminished standard of living?


THIS question seems to have been answered tho, like many many times by pointing out the great many fantastic productivity increasing machines we've used in the past that have over and over and OVER AGAIN

PROVEN to make life better for ALL HUMANS on the planet.

YET some KEEP on with this fantastical claim of it will somehow be "DIFFERENT THIS TIME"


the burden really is ON YOU
Really give us some HINT of WHY wave of labor saving devices be ANY DIFFERENT than ALL the MANY PREVIOUS????
Dave, you are really ignorant of modern economic trends.  It has been different this time since about 1972.

Before around 1972,  almost all productivity gains went to labor.  Very little went to owners of capital.

After around 1972, all productivity gains went to owners of capital.  None went to labor.

In fact after around 1972. the real median wage went down.  Labor started losing some of the productivity gains they had previously made.

So it is different this time and has been since around 1972.
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#4
(06-21-2018, 07:55 AM)ModestProposals Wrote:
(06-20-2018, 07:36 PM)DaveGillie Wrote: really got lost on that last thread,

but seems to always keep coming back to the SAME Question:

Quote:.What is your answer to the following question?

Will the benefits of increased productivity offered by robot grocery clerks, robot truck drivers, etc., inure to the benefit of all members of society?

or, will it lead to a chasm - where there is a separation in which the benefits accrue disproportionately to those at the top of economic society, while those humans that are replaced by robots have a diminished standard of living?


THIS question seems to have been answered tho, like many many times by pointing out the great many fantastic productivity increasing machines we've used in the past that have over and over and OVER AGAIN

PROVEN to make life better for ALL HUMANS on the planet.

YET some KEEP on with this fantastical claim of it will somehow be "DIFFERENT THIS TIME"


the burden really is ON YOU
Really give us some HINT of WHY wave of labor saving devices be ANY DIFFERENT than ALL the MANY PREVIOUS????
Dave, you are really ignorant of modern economic trends.  It has been different this time since about 1972.

Before around 1972,  almost all productivity gains went to labor.  Very little went to owners of capital.

After around 1972, all productivity gains went to owners of capital.  None went to labor.

In fact after around 1972. the real median wage went down.  Labor started losing some of the productivity gains they had previously made.

So it is different this time and has been since around 1972.

Productivity gains went to consumers both before and after 1972. Labor and owners of capital are consumers. Most of the tools I use in my daily life today were the stuff of science fiction in 1972, yet they are cheap and reliable with numerous manufacturers competing for my attention. The girl at 7/11 who sells me coffee every morning has a better cell phone than me, a relatively new car and a serious weight problem. I can't imagine any other economic system than capitalism that would deliver a similar result.
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#5
(06-21-2018, 07:55 AM)ModestProposals Wrote: Dave, you are really ignorant of modern economic trends.  It has been different this time since about 1972.

Before around 1972,  almost all productivity gains went to labor.  Very little went to owners of capital.

After around 1972, all productivity gains went to owners of capital.  None went to labor.

In fact after around 1972. the real median wage went down.  Labor started losing some of the productivity gains they had previously made.

So it is different this time and has been since around 1972.

Good luck trying to convince Republicans that anything changed when they weren't looking.

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#6
(06-21-2018, 11:37 AM)mason Wrote: Productivity gains went to consumers both before and after 1972. Labor and owners of capital are consumers. Most of the tools I use in my daily life today were the stuff of science fiction in 1972, yet they are cheap and reliable with numerous manufacturers competing for my attention. The girl at 7/11 who sells me coffee every morning has a better cell phone than me, a relatively new car and a serious weight problem. I can't imagine any other economic system than capitalism that would deliver a similar result.

Bravo! This is a very thought provoking post. I'm going to look forward to the responses, as I think this through. Off the top, I am thinking:

1. Is Capitalism the system that has delivered the described result? 

This forces my thinking about the traditional definition of Capitalism (where the factors of production are privately owned) versus Finster's practical definition of capitalism (where capital is employed). 

and then I am thinking of Mr. Gillie .......... with his head wedged in a dictionary, full of bluster.

there is also the whole benefit to the owner/worker/consumer thing ...............

crafty, very crafty
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#7
(06-22-2018, 12:22 AM)cbeatty Wrote: 1. Is Capitalism the system that has delivered the described result? 

This forces my thinking about the traditional definition of Capitalism (where the factors of production are privately owned) versus Finster's practical definition of capitalism (where capital is employed). 

and then I am thinking of Mr. Gillie .......... with his head wedged in a dictionary, full of bluster.
......................

interesting point,
TWO different definitions:
1. objective, written and defined on paper
2. subjective, as people use it

I know this is true of many words and yes, as you might expect it drives me absolutely nutz! assuming you know the difference between objective and subjective, you can imagine why. IMO subjective (in any area) is simply an excuse for anything and everything based on undefinable magic mind reading.  - by definition! - if done by mass delusion


BUT it really works good in this example cbeatty, THANKS!!
"money/capital" (practical capitalism) was invented thousands of years ago and is most likely the greatest productivity enhancer humans have ever know. I'ts been upgraded many times.

BUT once "self ownership" (dictionary Capitalism) came about as a widespread phenomenon - that greatest productivity enhancer was left in the dust by an even greater one.





Quote:cbeatty
................................

there is also the whole benefit to the owner/worker/consumer thing ...............

crafty, very crafty


owner/worker/consumer thing?
IN Capitalism, they must all be the same (we own ourselves, hence our output and things we trade for)
Which is why Capitalism is so important. (and self correcting when it comes to AI/Robots)



Now Socialists seem to be so scared of some people owning more than others,
that they want to take away owning your own stuff (abolish Capitalism)
they think "everyone" owning is better than "individuals" owning


but of course "being a slave to society is STILL Being a SLAVE".

I really prefer Freedom and it's benefits to Society as a whole, warts and all
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#8
The thing about Freedom and Capitalism is that individuals have freedom of choice. 

Unfortunately many people make bad ones.

Those post WW2 'consumers' always had the choice to just consume or consume a little less and become savers and subsequently investors. 

Most didn't: they just pissed it away as each pay cheque came their way. After all, there's another pay cheque next week, right?

When the easy money started drying up the 80's they went into debt to maintain that lifestyle regardless of income. And now they blame the evil bankers for making them do it.

Even today the fat chick at the 7/11 chose to shovel the food into her face and chose to buy a $500 phone.

Choices Choices. It's part of being a grownup.
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#9
(06-22-2018, 11:42 PM)andrew_o Wrote: The thing about Freedom and Capitalism is that individuals have freedom of choice. 

Unfortunately many people make bad ones.

Those post WW2 'consumers' always had the choice to just consume or consume a little less and become savers and subsequently investors. 

Most didn't: they just pissed it away as each pay cheque came their way. After all, there's another pay cheque next week, right?

When the easy money started drying up the 80's they went into debt to maintain that lifestyle regardless of income. And now they blame the evil bankers for making them do it.

Even today the fat chick at the 7/11 chose to shovel the food into her face and chose to buy a $500 phone.

Choices Choices. It's part of being a grownup.

I agree, but the alternative to freedom and capitalism is.. what? I prefer the freedom to make stupid choices myself rather than have stupid choices imposed upon me. I don't trust others to determine what's best for me. I expect the fat chick at 7/11 wouldn't either.
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#10
Yes, it's very important for the pro-Capitalist to push that whole "you own yourself, and therefore you own capital, hence you are a Capitalist", bullshit.

One thing, of many, for Finster: he pointed out the difference between a human scratching out a hole with his fingernails, versus a human digging a hole with capital (a shovel).

(06-23-2018, 12:31 AM)mason Wrote: I agree, but the alternative to freedom and capitalism is.. what? 

Does Capitalism equate to freedom?
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